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catholic answers forum -- The Holy Spirit guides the Church to understand the Scriptures, not individual believers (which idea is at the heart of sola fide which Luther invented to justify his revolt). so did the translaters get it wrong??

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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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The Holy Spirit guides the Church to understand the Scriptures, not individual believers.
I've never heard that before, and doesn't sound quite right to me. If that were the case, why wouldn't the Pope alone be given the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why are all believers given the gift of the Spirit dwelling within? Of course if my understanding is opposed to Church teaching I surrender my own and hold fast to the Church. But the Holy Spirit often speaks to me as I read Scriptures each day.

Can you show me anything in official doctrine that plainly states that the Holy Spirit does not guide individuals to understanding Scriptures?
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

No--Find a catholic one, or join a men's or women's group and listen to catholic answers and watch EWTN
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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I've never heard that before, and doesn't sound quite right to me. If that were the case, why wouldn't the Pope alone be given the gift of the Holy Spirit? Why are all believers given the gift of the Spirit dwelling within? Of course if my understanding is opposed to Church teaching I surrender my own and hold fast to the Church. But the Holy Spirit often speaks to me as I read Scriptures each day.

Can you show me anything in official doctrine that plainly states that the Holy Spirit does not guide individuals to understanding Scriptures?
The Holy Spirit gives us the gifts of wisdom and understanding, but we are not expected to read the Bible without the guidance of the Church - that's what the Church is there for, and why the Holy Spirit empowered the Church at Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come to us to teach us what the Church is supposed to be teaching us, but rather, to give us the receptivity of mind and humility to be able to receive the teachings without disputing or doubting them.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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Originally Posted by PietroPaolo View Post
The bold part above is a good example of a Catholic swallowing a Protestant idea without even noticing it (which is why you shouldn't spend 3 years studying the Bible with them unless you are already well formed in the Faith).

The Holy Spirit guides

the Church to understand the Scriptures
,

not individual believers

(which idea is at the heart of sola fide which Luther invented to justify his revolt).
so did the translaters get it wrong??

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the ...

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him ...
/1_john/2-27.htm
Bible Hub
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need ..

. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is ... And if The Anointing will remain with you which you have received from him, .... revelation and doctrine, for the whole Gospel was come by Jesus Christ, and



Thanks -- i have not seen any one define the limitation fo the Holy Spirit like this --

it eliminates all of Saint Paul writings-- especally -- 1 cor 12 and 1 cor 14- and ephesians -

Ephesians 4:5 states there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism."
Some Christians interpret this to mean that a single denomination
(with its beliefs, doctrines, and practices) constitutes the "one true faith."

Other Christians interpret this to mean that a group of denominations (with their collective beliefs, doctrines, and practices, which are sometimes different or even contradictory) constitutes a collective "one true faith."-

working4christ2 catholic dummies --The Holy Spirit guides the Church to understand the Scriptures, not individual believers (which idea is at the heart of sola fide which Luther invented to justify his revolt).

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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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I attended a Baptist Bible study for 3 years and I was HUGELY blessed by it. They were very welcoming and in all of that time I think I only heard about two things that were not in line with Catholic teaching.

I think there are a lot of blessings in group studies and if you don't have an opportunity in a Catholic setting, by all means take the opportunity with other brothers & sisters who also love Christ. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you discern what you are hearing and to guide you, and otherwise relax, enjoy, and learn. 
The bold part above is a good example of a Catholic swallowing a Protestant idea without even noticing it (which is why you shouldn't spend 3 years studying the Bible with them unless you are already well formed in the Faith). The Holy Spirit guides the Church to understand the Scriptures, not individual believers (which idea is at the heart of sola fide which Luther invented to justify his revolt).

working4christ2 Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???The Terrible Tyranny of the Tolerant

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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

No. Non-denominational interpretation of many Bible passages is out of line with the way the Bible has been understood for 2,000 years. As such, you will end up "learning" a bunch of misunderstandings, which won't help you. I'd only recommend such a group for someone who already knew the Bible and their Catholic Faith very well.



The Terrible Tyranny of the Tolerant

Over at Reddit, there is a subreddit which has named itself "OpenChristian." These self professed "open" Christians are committed to, what else, openness and open mindedness. Or so they might have you think from their chosen name. In fact, they are very closed. This, of course, is the delicious irony of liberalism, for there is nothing less tolerant than the promoters of tolerance.

On the side bar, the OpenChristian group provides the following description of itself (emphasis original):
Here there be heretics! 
OpenChristian ...welcome(s) those of any ethnicity, nationality, gender expression and identity or sexual orientation. OpenChristian is pro-feminist, pro-queer, anti-racist and anti-oppression.
Any comment that is racist, homophobic, transphobic, misogynist, or otherwise in any way geared against someone for their sexual or gender identity will be removed, and repeat offense WILL lead to banning
Does that sound open and accepting to you? Does that sound welcoming? I know using all CAPS, bold, and italics to highlight a torrent of what amounts to little more than name calling just screams "welcoming" and "open" to me.

No, it seems that the "OpenChristian" group only tolerates those who think like they do. If you think differently, especially if you believe in traditional, orthodox Christianity, you will be dealt with by removal from the site in true Stalinist open-minded fashion.

To add to the irony of it all, and despite their gleeful acceptance of the moniker "heretic," "OpenChristian" has its own set of disallowed beliefs (i.e. heresies) which lead to comment deletion and ultimately to banning from the community (emphasis added):
OpenChristian strives to be Open and Affirming, operating from the position that people of all sexual orientations, gender identities, and gender expressions are welcome in the full life and ministry of the church. As an Open and Affirming space, advocating the position that GSM identities or non-hetero relationships are sinful is not allowed and will result in post/comment deletion.
Ah yes, there is nothing so "Open and Affirming" as deleting people's posts for disagreeing with you! One can almost smell the burning pages as books of the "intolerant" are thrown (metaphorically) into the bonfire. Such tolerance!

Of course, such tactics are all too common among the devotees of tolerance as was seen by the late Father Neuhaus (requiescat in pace),

Father Neuhaus

Orthodoxy has indeed been proscribed at "OpenChristian."

Liberalism's inherent tendency towards totalitarianism, towards crushing all those who oppose "tolerance" with the utmost intolerance, was clearly seen by our beloved Pope Emeritus, Benedict XVI, who called on these so-called "open" Christians to develop a mature faith,
Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be "tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine", seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one's own ego and desires.We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An "adult" faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceipt from truth.We must develop this adult faith; we must guide the flock of Christ to this faith. And it is this faith - only faith - that creates unity and is fulfilled in love.
Homily of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Dean of the College of Cardinals, Mass for the Election of the Supreme Pontiff, St. Peter's Basilica, 18 April 2005 
Ratzinger young


Perhaps their desire to remain "open" is what ultimately destroys any chance for a mature faith for people like the moderators at "OpenChristian." Being "open-minded" is not, after all, the highest intellectual goal. It ought never be mistaken for a goal at all for "open-mindedness" is merely a means to a higher end. No less a wit than GK Chesterton said it best,
“Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.”
That "something solid" is Truth. We open our minds in order to better discover the truth. Once truth is attained, we then must close our minds to error. Such is common sense. It would be no great thing for an astronomer (or anyone) to keep on "open mind" as to whether the Earth is round or flat! It's round, we know it is round, hence we can close our minds on the solidity of the truth of its roundness and move on. Not only is such a closing to error the whole point of "open-mindedness", it's also the only path to freedom, freedom from the tyrants of tolerance - those who would, in the name of "openness" close down all thought that counters there own. It is one thing to clamp your mind down on the solidity of truth once grasped, it is another entirely to angrily denounce all and any who dare disagree with you in the name of "tolerance." But such is, sadly, what passes for high-mindedness in todays decadent culture.

Then again, maybe we should just ban the writings of Father Neuhaus, Pope Benedict, and GK Chesterton - that would, it seems, be the tolerant thing to do.

working4christ2 Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???


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Default Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

I'm really interested in learning more about my faith and about the sacred scriptures, but my local church does not offer any classes. I've looked everywhere and nothing. A local "non-denominational" church offers many courses that teach about sacred scripture.

I'm Catholic, should I join these groups? I just bought a book written by Stephen Ray, "St. John's Gospel" and he says that this book would be helpful for those Catholics attending non-denominational bible study groups.

Suggestions?
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

I wouldn't recommend it. Most of these groups only give you individuals private opinions and they present it as fact. You can be certain they will deny Catholic teachings, and discount any you present.

What big city are you near? Maybe someone here can help you find a Catholic group.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

There are online Catholic Bible studies, such as these:

www.catholicbiblestudyonline.com

www.salvationhistory.com/studies/courses/online

http://www.scotthahn.com/bible-studies.html scroll down for the online studies.

http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/cont...ncecourse.html.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

Rather than going outside of your parish to find a small group of people wanting to learn more about the Bible, why not first start with your own parish?

You said your parish does not offer any classes. Well, maybe that means God is calling you to get one started.  I'm sure there are others in your parish who would greatly benefit from participating in such a study.

Of course, having the priest participate is nice, but not always possible. That's okay. You don't need to necessarily have a resident Bible scholar at your parish to lead the Bible study (though that would be nice!). There are many programs available (such as the Great Adventure Bible Timeline) which make it easy for any parish group to study the Bible in a systematic way.

Our parishes will never improve their offerings if we don't step up and contribute our own service. It's not just about what our parish can offer us but about how we can serve our neighbors through our parish.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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Originally Posted by Gabbanelli911 View Post
I'm really interested in learning more about my faith and about the sacred scriptures, but my local church does not offer any classes. I've looked everywhere and nothing. A local "non-denominational" church offers many courses that teach about sacred scripture.

I'm Catholic, should I join these groups? I just bought a book written by Stephen Ray, "St. John's Gospel" and he says that this book would be helpful for those Catholics attending non-denominational bible study groups.

Suggestions?
Doing a St. John's gospel Bible study with protestants would be interesting to say the least.especially when it is called the Sacramental Gospel .....here is an excellent audio Catholic Bible study on John.....

http://www.salvationhistory.com/stud...ses/audio/john

Here is a free online Catholic Bible study that will really help you grow in your Faith and has been endorsed by Scott Hahn.....

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/

It does not have all the books of the Bible yet but enough to keep you busy and it has topical studies also. You can print out the lessons and it has questions (and answers). It also has many references to the Catechism which is essential in any decent Catholic Bible study.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

I agree with Joe. Chances are there are other members of your parish who would love to sit and discuss and learn more about the faith. Starting a Bible study group isn't hard at all. Just talk with your priest about it. Even if his schedule doesn't allow for him to be present at every meeting, he may be able to recommend some books or other resources, and perhaps one of the deacons may join in. It can even be advertised in the weekly announcements, and your priest could even make an announcement at the end of Mass so that the congregation knows the meeting times, place, etc.

You'd be surprised how many people would show up.

As far as the non-denominational study group, personally I would not take that particular path to learn more about the Catholic faith. I've attended plenty of study groups in my time, and generally enjoyed the good conversation and met some very nice people in the process, but unfortunately (in my experience) most non-catholics have practically zero knowledge of the history of the Church, know little or nothing about the saints, and can often times have a very skewed understanding of Catholic practices. (One I hear a lot of is that Catholics are idolaters, or that we worship Mary and the saints, which of course is false.)

Also, as someone else mentioned above, you never really know if what you are hearing at a non-denominational meeting is fact or opinion, which is unfortunate. I notice a lot of the time scripture is taken our of context, or purposefully skewed to fit an individual's own agenda.

I once sat through a Baptist sermon where the pastor declared alcohol to be the true root of all evil, and then went on to explain that Jesus did not turn water into wine at the wedding feast, but rather created a non-alcoholic grape juice.... which makes no sense. If he would have read a few lines further he would have had to read the bit about 'saving the best for last' and a paragraph further would have been the inebriated fellow falling out of the window.

I mention this merely as an example. Also, Protestants in general usually don't have a very good grasp of what the Sacraments are, or how they are to be used, and when.

non-denominational prayer groups can be a lot of fun, and a great way to meet people or even try to spread a better understanding of your own faith, but in my experience they simply aren't the best way to actually learn about the Catholic faith.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

I attended a Baptist Bible study for 3 years and I was HUGELY blessed by it. They were very welcoming and in all of that time I think I only heard about two things that were not in line with Catholic teaching.

I think there are a lot of blessings in group studies and if you don't have an opportunity in a Catholic setting, by all means take the opportunity with other brothers & sisters who also love Christ. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you discern what you are hearing and to guide you, and otherwise relax, enjoy, and learn. 
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

Also, come to think of it, you may want to find out if your parish has an RCIA (Rites of Christian Initiation for Adults) class. It is very much like a Bible study class, and is full of a lot of great information. Usually everyone is welcome to attend, whether you are a person converting to the faith, or simply someone who wishes to 'brush up' on your knowledge.

Our Church is starting one at the beginning of September. It'll run until Easter.

Might be another avenue for you to look into. 
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

No. Non-denominational interpretation of many Bible passages is out of line with the way the Bible has been understood for 2,000 years. As such, you will end up "learning" a bunch of misunderstandings, which won't help you. I'd only recommend such a group for someone who already knew the Bible and their Catholic Faith very well.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LPS View Post
I attended a Baptist Bible study for 3 years and I was HUGELY blessed by it. They were very welcoming and in all of that time I think I only heard about two things that were not in line with Catholic teaching.

I think there are a lot of blessings in group studies and if you don't have an opportunity in a Catholic setting, by all means take the opportunity with other brothers & sisters who also love Christ. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you discern what you are hearing and to guide you, and otherwise relax, enjoy, and learn. 
The bold part above is a good example of a Catholic swallowing a Protestant idea without even noticing it (which is why you shouldn't spend 3 years studying the Bible with them unless you are already well formed in the Faith). The Holy Spirit guides the Church to understand the Scriptures, not individual believers (which idea is at the heart of sola fide which Luther invented to justify his revolt).
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

I participated in a group of about 10 people for almost two years, until it disbanded. Only two of us were Catholics; there was a lot of pressure on us to explain and or defend Catholic teachings. My friend loved the challenge and was good at it, thank God, or I would have been very uncomfortable. But we have a good and helpful Catholic Catechism, whereas there is virtually no comparable protestant document, so we have a good basis for our understanding and interpretation of Scripture whereas it seems most protestants have a huge variety of opinions that wander all over the place, and mostly they will argue with each other, although usually not with the degree of intensity they have in their objections to Catholicism.
The sessions encouraged me to read the Bible much more carefully and fully than I ever have before or since. And I found many things in the Bible I had never given much consideration to. Our parish has only had a few very brief adult Bible study sessions (only when a priest is available) and I personally feel this is a terrible mistake. I encourage you to go, even though it is possible there will be one or more individuals who are unpleasant, irreverent, and insufferable. If so, just say thanks and goodby.
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabbanelli911 View Post
I'm really interested in learning more about my faith and about the sacred scriptures, but my local church does not offer any classes. I've looked everywhere and nothing. A local "non-denominational" church offers many courses that teach about sacred scripture.

I'm Catholic, should I join these groups? I just bought a book written by Stephen Ray, "St. John's Gospel" and he says that this book would be helpful for those Catholics attending non-denominational bible study groups.

Suggestions?
Also.. check out the Institute of Catholic Culture run by FrDn. Sabbatino Carnazzo, of the Melkite Church:

http://www.instituteofcatholiccultur...plete-library/
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

In order to learn your faith, Gabbanelli911, I suggest getting a study guide for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's fine to study the Bible, especially with a reliable Catholic study course, but in order to undestand how it all fits into our lives as Catholics you need to read and understand something of the CCC, as well. For Catholics are not "people of the book." We don't look to the Bible alone for doctrine/dogma and morals. We look to the Church founded on the Apostles. 
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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But we have a good and helpful Catholic Catechism,
Indeed and in that Catechism is an excellent section on how Catholics should approach Scripture reading/study.....

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_cs...m/p1s1c2a3.htm

Quote:
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").
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Default Re: Should I joing a non-denominational Bible Study Group???

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I participated in a group of about 10 people for almost two years, until it disbanded. Only two of us were Catholics; there was a lot of pressure on us to explain and or defend Catholic teachings.
I was fortunate that nobody ever pressured me to explain Catholic teachings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschator83 View Post
The sessions encouraged me to read the Bible much more carefully and fully than I ever have before or since. And I found many things in the Bible I had never given much consideration to.
AMEN - that was my own experience as well. It sparked a great love of the Bible for me, and I continue to read it daily.

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Originally Posted by eschator83 View Post
Our parish has only had a few very brief adult Bible study sessions (only when a priest is available) and I personally feel this is a terrible mistake. I encourage you to go....
Again ... amen. 
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